Wow! What happened?

Wow!

I can’t believe it. I have been seriously studying tadabase these last few days and then WHAM! Overnight the prices DOUBLED! What a difference a new year makes! Now, for $149/month you (don’t) get:

No Pipes

No Table Rules

No Maps or Geo-coding

No Shared Builders

No Front-end Imports

That is to say, a somewhat handicapped product.

Perversely, the Pro and Premium plans cost more annually than monthly. I assume that is a typo? I want to believe that the whole new pricing scheme is a typo.

I have been looking hard at tada and saying to myself what a great product. Not perfect, mind you, but it has a lot to offer. And I KNOW what the competition has and doesn’t have. But money matters.

I remember back in the old days. IBM sent out a letter to its customers telling them they had new technology which could double the speed of their installed mainframes. Their customers eagerly ponied up the half-million dollars to upgrade. An IBM tech would come by, and when no one was watching they would open up a panel and turn an unmarked screw 180-degrees. Voila! IBM execs referred to it as the “golden screwdriver”. I guess tada has found their own version of the golden screwdriver.

Look at some of the competition - Appgyver (free), Backendless, Bubble, Glide, Knack, ScriptCase, not to mention a whole host of desktop mobile/web development tools. Too many to enumerate. Tada is way over the top on pricing compared to those offerings.

What will next year bring - quadrupling the pricing? The last product that I saw do something similar was Wakanda (French based). Excellent product. The day of their official launch, their pricing went from 0 to the moon. Six months later they were gone from this earth. I’m not saying tada will be gone, but.

Customers have to expect a certain amount of integrity from a SaaS provider. One can develop a complex app over time in a SaaS product and they know that they have you locked in. The price of getting out is more expensive than staying in. Maybe. Or maybe not.

tadabase seems to be a great product. But.

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I was as alarmed as you when I first heard about these price rises. But, as an existing customer, I locked in my current deal for another 12 months, so I have deferred the innevitable.

And I reflected on how I had showed the capabilities of Tadabase to my colleagues and described the price as “unbelievably low for what it does” - today its not so unbelievable but that does not detract from the product.

I do recognise that I would have been a bit more sceptical about trying Tadabase in the first place (given all of the competitors) and that other early entrants might baulk at the new pricing - just like you. But on going, I am getting value for money, and will be even at the new rates.

But my biggest concern is that our investments (in Tadabase in time and effort to develop, and then in reliance upon it when deployed) far exceed the licence fee.

Therefore I want to be sure that the extra I will pay will buy the security and continuity I need - not a repeat of your Wkanada example. And that continuance is underwitten by increased users and not by pillaging existing users.

In the end it comes down to trust - we are all forced to make a decision, do we have trust? And, at this time, I do.

The change to pay per app I don’t like so much, and this is why I stopped with Bubble.io. After I understood that pay per app is expensive, indeed I chose for Tadabase. Now Tadabase is copying the princing structure of Bubble.io. I don’t know if that is wise.

Tadabase is better and easier than other platforms, so it was a good choice anyway, I am sure, after about 9 months on the platform. Our Recruitment part of our business is running smoothly on Tadabase app.

I also locked-in, the reason was not price, but above all that in current subscription I can make more than 1 apps, so changing to pay-per-app was no option. But as a consequence, I have now started to integrate several apps in only 1. That will take some time, and that is why I am happy I have (at least) another year for that.

Indeed, the time invested in the application is way higher in value than the subscription price, and also the advantages of using the finished application will outweigh any costs. ROI is certain.

Here is the problem with most platforms. In order to learn and to experience that platform, the initial price is high, so that will not attract customers. Until you have understood the value and what you can do with the platform, easily 6 months are gone. So, you have to invest quite a lot in time and costs for Tadabase to get to a level that you can get an ROI by using it. This is in my opinion, holding customers back. Investment is high and upfront, you don’t know if it will pay off. Tadabase should find a solution for that!

Paying for something where a process in the company is running on the platform is no issue. But investing money to try it out is a problem and a reason not to start with Tadabase.

Why I value Tadabase over others?

  1. security, certified - I don’t have to worry about that
  2. the easiness - I tried about 10 platforms. Tadabase had the advantage to start recently compared to others and therefore experience the mistakes of other platforms and copy that what is good and expanding on it
  3. the SUPPORT - in capitals - the support through chat is the biggest reason and helps Citizen Developers like me a lot.
  4. the UI and logic of the platform
  5. The response to the requirements and requests from the community. If you convince Tadabase management, it can go really fast.
  6. The speed and the stability of the platform. >98% of the time it is running very smoothly and fast.

It doesn’t mean there is still a lot to do, but basically it is running smoothly.

P.S. maybe a compromise can be found, between pay per app and many apps for a subscription. My proposal in stead of 25 per subscription, reduce it to 5 apps per subscription? Or when staging/production will be working in the future: no pay for apps in staging and start paying when it is in production. Or limiting the amount of users for apps in development phase (free), and only allow 5+ users for apps in production, which then is paid?

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I agree. The pricing change is pre mature and is driving me to look at others. Tadabase is a great product and I realize pricing increases are inevitable, however, I believe pricing increase, at least for now, will ultimately drive customers away. With the release of the new builder, that are many functions that were missing that had to be added and some functionality that seems to be inferior to the previous builder or still missing/broken. There is no ability to request a backup file of your data tables easily and store that locally in case something happens.

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In my opinion I think Tadabase was under priced compared to the others listed in the first post and the functionality is better then most of the competition. I think the new price structure is fair for what you get especially for the amount of records you get and the unlimited users.

Will Tadabase lose some clients with this price increase? maybe. Will they lose a lot of clients? I doubt it. Tadabase is a very good product and they deserve to charge for a good product.

Bottom line is a company has to do what it needs to do in order to keep evolving and spending money on development. Tadabase has spent a lot of time developing over the last couple of years and as long as they keep that up then the price increase will be well worth it.

Nobody likes price increases but it happens on every product. Though this was a big increase, I believe it was long over do and we should see more gradual increases in the future.

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Do you think that is a mature product though? Do you run into bugs and lacking features? Is this product something you feel is up to the same standard of maturity compared to Knack and others? By Tadabases own admission, this product has been flying under the radar intentionally and there still way too many bugs. Paying higher prices while the product is still needing a lot of fine tuning doesnt seem to be the time to do this.

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I have had my apps in production for 2 years with little to no issues, so yes I do believe it is a mature enough product. But that is just my opinion. I was using Knack before I came over to Tadabase and I was much more impressed with Tadabase compared to Knack.

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My unsolicited two cents…

I also agree with @mtif that trust has to be established to ensure that the features/quality/support remains the same. I had a conversation with @moe and expressed to him in plain language that Tadabase is the best product for small businesses being able to provide robust products. He assured me that their mission is to not price out us “small guys”.

With that said, @centellix does have valid concerns on bugs and features (PDF is the bain of my existence still). Again, I trust the Tada team’s 2022 comments that they will be bug free by the end of 2022. I also have heard (from @moe) that the PDF functionality will have some significant updates soon. The Eledo interface will be a good short-term solution with the long-term resolution being a totally rebuilt PDF functionality that will be housed in Tadabase. I was assured by Moe that the long-term PDF functionality will be available to Pro + plans.

In full transparency, I have been with Tadabase for over 2 years now and I do not have a published application due to the PDF functionality not being fully launched. I have had numerous conversations with virtually all customer-facing team members and they know full well my concerns/exasperation.

To the Tadabase team: You all have developed a platform that is growing fast and you are experiencing not-uncommon growing pains. I challenge you to remain true to your belief that anyone (I’m focusing on small businesses especially) should be able to provide high-quality database products. We all understand that price increases and feature availability changes occur but please do not outprice us “little people”.

Thanks all for listening,
Adam

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Agree with everything that you (SafetyUniversity) said - especially We all understand that price increases and feature availability changes occur but please do not outprice us “little people”.

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I share the opinion of the majority here.
Tadabase has been a great small business solution of very high quality and incredible support. This price hike is uncomfortable, especially in our case that we only have one client.

Price hikes are understandable like any other, especially in these changing times. However, as a suggestion, it would have been good to respect current customers with current prices and leave the new rate for new customers as I have seen in other cases, this in order to respect and take care of your current customers for having trusted in your product.

Tadabase is still a good option, the rise so high is not understood, but we have to wait to see what happens. For our part, we will try to apply the increase to our client and see if we can maintain it.

greetings to all,

Hi all, Moe here. First off, I wanted to thank you all for your comments- I truly appreciate the open dialogue here and take each of your feedback to heart.

So, reading through this thread, it seems that the overwhelming feeling is that our recent price increases seem fair and even overdue, but the concern is that prices should not continue to increase drastically and should not “outprice us little people” as @SafetyUniversity phrased it in his eloquent as always response.

I’m so happy that you started this conversation @Peter_J and I’m thankful for all your responses because I can see that there is still some confusion and concerns regarding our pricing changes and this gives me the opportunity to clarify.

To clarify: Our new per-app pricing model will impact new customers only. This pricing change will not impact existing clients and existing clients will be grandfathered into the ‘per-account’ model forever.

Full transparency on this pricing change to explain why shifting to per-app pricing was necessary for new customers: As you know, Tadabase can be fully white-labeled. Not semi- white labeled like most other companies. Truly white-labeled to the point where our customers have the competitive advantage of using Tadabase to build apps not only for their own businesses but for other clients’ businesses as well. This feature alone has attracted a large number of incredible Tadabase customers who, upon finding Tadabase, started new businesses building white-label apps for other businesses.

This means that in addition to servicing our usual customers and their users, a sizable number of our customers include multiple clients, each with their own app and each with their own set of hundreds to thousands of users (all on one customer account). This is incredible and inspiring and we love it! But, for obvious reasons, it’s also not sustainable as a pricing structure. Each of our customers’ clients and each of those clients’ end-users is our responsibility and must be fully supported by our infrastructure and support staff. To allow multiple apps on one account no longer made sense given our extensive white labeling functionality and our intense commitment to providing stellar customer support and reliability to every user utilizing our platform.

With respect to our existing customers who have already invested in Tadabase until this point, we made sure to grandfather each existing customer into the per-account pricing structure forever. If you are a current customer, please rest assured that you can continue enjoying the benefits of multiple apps per account for as long as your account is active.

I hope this provides clarity and insight into our per-app pricing change. Please feel free to reach out to me anytime if I can clarify further.

Now, to address our recent price increase: Price increases sting, no matter how fair they may be. We tried to do everything possible to make it sting less. While our recent price increase may seem drastic, it is actually long overdue and has been postponed by us for several years now. We haven’t increased prices since Tadabase first began charging back in 2019, and when we planned on increasing prices in January 2020 we immediately postponed the increase due to the pandemic, and we kept on postponing increases for almost 2 years. Even now, we gave existing customers the option to lock in their current pricing for a year which postpones the increase another 12 months down the road.

We truly did our best to postpone and mitigate any price increases over the past 3 years, however, with that being said, should there ever be another price increase in the far off distant future, it will definitely be more gradual. We have always and will continue to do our best to mitigate costs for our customers, even when costs rise significantly on our end, and you can be assured that we have your backs. As I always say, our big lofty goal is to simply help our customers win. All of our customers, big or small.

Tadabase is in the extremely fortunate position of being bootstrapped, profitable, and in charge of our own destiny without any investors forcing us to “grow at all costs.” We love our small business customers and we have the ability to invest in them and see them through to success with the apps they build on Tadabase. We understand the trust, time, and investment all of our customers have placed in Tadabase and we do not take your trust lightly. We know that worrying about drastic price hikes is not a way to maintain your trust, and once again, I assure you that we have always and will continue to always mitigate any price increases to the best of our ability.

As a number of you mentioned in your comments, price increases are inevitable with every (growing/ innovating) company. While this is definitely true, I’d like to highlight some of the specific reasons behind our price increase at this time. We at Tadabase are aiming to create the most comprehensive, secure, and dependable development platform on the market. For a platform of our scope that hosts thousands of applications that run entire businesses and enterprises from A-Z, this means tackling security as a constant, continuous effort to achieve the highest levels of protection and the highest levels of certification across the most reputable accreditation standards. We have never and will never look at security and reliability as static, one-and-done features. And while our security and infrastructure are by far our biggest expenses, they are without a doubt our most worthwhile efforts that will pay off a million times over for our customers. In addition to security and reliability, our price increase will also reflect in our 2022 commitments to bug elimination, an expanded support and engineering team, and more built-in functionality to eliminate more of our customers’ costs on 3rd party tools. As a teaser example of an incredible native feature soon to come, I can tell you that PDFs are about to go from being the bane of @SafetyUniversity’s existence to the light of his life with our upcoming PDF update. The update will be in 2 phases, one with a PDF form filler (Feburary, 2022) and a second update for PDF reports (April, 2022). Stay tuned for more details on this one! You can also read more about our goals for 2022 here.

I hope this lengthy post addresses your concerns regarding our recent pricing changes. Please feel free to reach out to me anytime with any further questions or comments.

Happy new years, everyone and thank you as always for your continued support!

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I want to say more about tadabase a little later on, but I don’t see “per-app pricing” on the web site. It still says 10,25,50,125… Or am I misunderstanding it?

We were supposed to update the pricing page to this: https://tadabase.io/pricing-main, but there’s still a few bugs with the per app pricing model we’re fixing prior to doing so.

First let me thank everyone who responded and participated in this thread. Your thoughtful comments are much appreciated. tada is in many ways a great product. Excellent documentation, great videos, etc. I love the roadmap and the ambitious schedule of constant new features. As well the dedication to putting out a high quality product, state of the art platform and so on. And thanks to Moe, one of the company owners if I understand it. Your comments and participation are especially meaningful.

I don’t know how open tada is to suggestions (seems like you are). The new pricing model is much more reasonable in my opinion. However, it doesn’t work for me personally and here’s why. For my own personal data app which is currently in MariaDB using other front-end RAD tools, I have something like 150 tables. That includes a personal PIM as well as all my project management stuff (I’m a database developer). I’m just guessing at the 150 table number. I suppose I should just do a table count. But in my personal app even though I have “150” tables, I probably have less than 50,000 records TOTAL spread among those tables. A Pro plan with a max of 30 tables would never work for me. Even at 150, I am constantly coming up with new tables. But they usually only hold a small collection of records. Perhaps tada could come up with a more flexible formula to accommodate people in my position?

OTOH, I have clients with 50 to 100 tables with 100,000’s of records. But even in those cases, the larger record counts are usually limited to a few tables. Often the majority of tables contain a few 100 or a few thousand records. That’s not unusual in my experience. If I ever were to have any hope of converting those applications to tada at some point in the future, I would need a plan flexible enough to meet those requirements. So, right now, tada is beyond my reach. But I will definitely be paying attention.

Thanks for listening.

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@moe
I’m new here and only just discovered Tadabase a few days ago. I realise that this conversation is a little old and I might be late to the discussion.

I’m evaluating Tadabase for a Health and Safety app I am creating. We are a small H&S firm that works with heavy-industry clients.

I was delighted to discover Tadabase – its features and functionality seem to be a perfect fit for what we want to achieve in our app. Tadabase is the leading candidate for us – almost a no-brainer.

As part of my evaluation, I’ve been looking at the pricing plans and found this post on the new proposed pricing structure. The new one-app-per-plan concept works fine for us and especially the ability to scale up as we get more clients by moving through the pricing tiers. Looking at just the “headline” features of the plans, we would start on the Explore Plan while in development, launch with the Pro Plan and move up beyond that as and when we attract clients and need the capacity.

Unfortunately, what doesn’t work for us is the proposed limitation on the number of tables. As Health and Safety affects every aspect of our clients’ businesses, our app will be very “broad” – if I can use that term. It will touch every part of their operations – employees, assets, equipment, locations, jobs, sites, workflows, compliance, etc. This means lots of tables. Some of these tables can be quite small (static reference tables). I’ve already scoped much of what our app requires, and we will very likely need 50+ tables. For us, the number of tables required won’t change if we have one customer, or twenty – scaling is strictly a matter of the number of clients and their records / files.

This struck me as a strange limitation to impose. It seems that the tiers don’t just scale the capacity, but they also restrict the complexity of an app.

This limitation means that we would have to start on the top-tier Gold Plan during development - well before we can even take on a single client and even then, we would need several more clients before we achieve break-even, which simply won’t work for us.

I understand that different users have different requirements, but I’d like to let you know that this one facet of the new price model would be a deal-breaker for us, as it might be for others attempting to create sophisticated business apps, regardless of scale.

I hope that you might re-consider this part of the pricing model, so that the tiers reflect size, scale and capacity, rather than also app complexity / sophistication.

Anyway, I wanted to let you know that you have an excellent product and I wanted to register my vote for a change to this part of the new pricing model.

All the best

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Pricing is hard. There are a lot of factors to consider. And when you make a decision and announce it, it’s not that easy to take it back if you discover you made a mistake. I sympathize with Moe and his colleagues who are dealing with this, and I respect them for taking the time to get it right. I’m especially grateful to @Moe for his thoughtful and candid response earlier.

.

That said, this discussion has made me nervous. For over two years I’ve been plotting my move away from FileMaker (which has been my development platform for 20 years) to something genuinely web based. There are too many options for anybody honest to say he’s looked at everything but I’ve looked at a lot and I think I’ve seen the most promising candidates, including (but not limited to) Tadabase, Knack, Caspio, AppSheet, SmartSheet, Bubble, Google Tables and Airtable (with and without the front-end assistance of Softr, Stacker or Noloco). Knack and Tadabase are the finalists.

I’m a consulting developer, not an in-house developer. I have a bunch of active clients and hope to keep most of them, and that means I’m working on a bunch of apps at any given time. I frequently create prototyping or test apps, “playpen” apps where I try out techniques. The ability to create a new app without thinking twice about is critically important for me. At the same time, record counts matter, too. Most of my apps right now contain 30–60K records, and a couple have well over 100K. I can streamline that when I convert, but most of my apps aren’t going to get trimmed down to 10,000 records or fewer. Finally, I don’t want to have to think about user counts.

As I suggested earlier, for the database applications work I do, the best options appear to be Knack or Tadabase. I like them both for different reasons. Knack’s current pricing gives me more apps per account, while Tadabase’s current pricing gives me a high max record count. But if I squint my eyes, their current prices are pretty comparable at the tier that I would be committing to. Knack does have the advantage of two quite affordable account levels, great for learners. On the other hand, Tadabase has an almost decisively stronger feature set. The ability to track user access to an app, to have canned filters and ad-hoc filtering available on a table page at the same time, better export options, some control over where to store files — these are the factors that have been making me lean strongly in favor of Tadabase. I’m currently paying for accounts with both services. Can’t afford to do that much longer, especially since I’m not yet making any money from either service.

Now Knack has its own attractions. If Tadabase does switch to per-app pricing — if for example I have to pay to build a test app in Tadabase — well, maybe I’ll bite the bullet and stick with Tadabase. Or maybe Knack’s weaknesses will start to matter less to me than its strengths. I don’t know.

As I said, it’s a hard decision for a company. But these are hard decisions for me, too, as an independent developer. I hope it turns out well for all of us!

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Perhaps there is a compromise

I humbly submit there be a sub-menu for add-ons. Something like ( I just made up some figures) …

Extra Tables (20 extra tables) - $XX/app/month

Table Upgrade (additional 500,000 records) - $XX/table/month

Storage Upgrade (100Gb) - $XX/app/month

And so on…

This type of pricing could be a flexible compromise and is something I’ve seen some other platforms do. This would help Tadabase be a better fit for those of us with additional, specific needs.

I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, or presume to know what’s best for your business, I’m just trying to get my head around possibly paying $1K/month for a lot of capacity I won’t need, just to be able to have enough tables to prototype my app.

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Well, I don’t think the horse is quite dead yet. :slightly_smiling_face: And while I don’t presume to tell Tadabase what’s best for its business, I do have some opinions about what is best for mine.

Yes, I have the same problem. And I personally might find an “extras” menu a good idea. Knack does something similar and it’s part of what I find attractive about their pricing. The midlevel Knack plans that cost roughly the same as a couple of Tadabase plans provide more apps, but fewer max records. But Knack makes it possible to buy extra records and add them to your account. Problem solved. (Of course, you’re still using Knack, so there’s that.:slightly_smiling_face:)

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I would also be interested in seeing some upgrade options for existing clients that have signed-up but need to purchase X thousand more records (as their systems grow) but can’t justify the leap to the next plan

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Coming from Knack, the pricing seems high but I can sell it based on capability, speed, support, etc.

The bigger issue for me is the “Per app” (unless I am missing something?)
I need at least 2, test and prod, so $100-$200 a month becomes $200-$400?

Background: I am very new to Tada, just 10 days into migrating Knack > Tada, starting with my biggest customer app, and now reconsidering. :slightly_frowning_face:

Having come from a ‘dev >> test >> prod’ mindset, for me it’s just not an option to not be able to easily back out changes that impact a production environment. As I understand it, restores are available from support, but snapshotting before major changes, or user-level access to backup/restores is essential in my opinion - particularly being in Australia with the time difference.

In Knack I currently get around this by just copying the whole app, tasks and data and tasks to one of my 8 Application slots before any major changes, I can then test, and also back out if any issues arise. However, the new Tada pricing and 1 app per environment means this is not possible that I can see?

Also, I don’t have a “backups and logs” section in my settings, so I assume the functionality mentioned here is unavailable yet?

“We discovered a critical bug that forced us to revert the update on this. Stay tuned!”

Anyway, I have written to my account/onboarding person asking for options. Like the chat support, they are very responsive.

Fingers crossed there is some solution, because I really love everything else about Tadabase! :slight_smile: